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 Lithium Battery

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customerlin
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PostSubject: Lithium Battery   Tue Dec 23, 2014 7:37 am

I'm not used to ride on winter, so my conventional battery is discharged for a long time

Searching the internet I found Lithium Baterries



These batteries not only has an increased Start Power, they can be connected to the Optimate Lithium 5A for a long maintenance time without damage (all the winter the bike is ready to ride but you need a specific charger). They charge the battery 90% in 6 minutes if you care to publicity

They also has a power test:



I want to know if someone has tried them... and how does they works
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fat intruder
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:53 pm

never had one fitted to a bike if I'm honest I didn't know they do them for bikes but I do have cordless drills with lithium ion batteries bloody expensive to replace but way way better than my cordless drill with a normal battery as the lithium ion ones last a lot longer. Would be very interested if you go ahead and get one for you to give it a right up and let us know how you think it compares to normal bike battery
just out of interest how much are they?
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customerlin
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:59 pm

They are not very expensive, around 100€ (75 Pounds), the charger around 55

It is good to have the maintenance cicle, because you can install a scorpio alarm (I had one time ago and have to remove because discharge the battery in 2 or 3 weeks)


Last edited by customerlin on Tue Dec 23, 2014 3:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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customerlin
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Tue Dec 23, 2014 3:02 pm

These are the specifications for both batteries original and lithium:

Modelo de fábrica: FTX12-BS
Batería sellada 12v para moto FTX12-BS
·         CAPACIDAD (Ah): 10
·         A (EN):  180
·         DIMENSIONES (mm): 150 x 87 x 130
·         PESO: 4.6 kg
·         POLO: +I
 
Equivalente a:
·         FIAMM FTX12-BS
·         YUASA YTX12-BS
·         VARTA 510012009
 
Régimen de carga estándar: 1,2 A x 5 a 10 horas
Régimen de carga máximo 5 A x 1 hora
Cargar cada mes cuando esté quitada de la moto
 
Modelo Litio: Batería Litio SKYRICH YTX12-BS / HJTX12 (L) FP-S con Test de Nivel de Carga
 
Batería Litio 12v para moto HJTX12 (L) FP-S
·         CAPACIDAD (Ah): 40
·         A (EN):  240
·         DIMENSIONES (mm): 150 x 86 x 91
·         PESO: 900 g
 
Régimen de carga estándar: 2 Ah

Régimen de carga máximo 5Ah (Recarga la batería al 90% en sólo 6 minutos) (Optimate Lithium 5A)


I can translate if you don't understand any data
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simbo
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:54 pm

They look a good battery, cheaper to just get a Oximiser for £20 and leave your battery on charge over the winter though.
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v-twin
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:31 pm

I am not sure if it the case with Lithium batteries for bikes, but I know Lithium batteries in power tools do not like the cold and some will not charge if it is cold, it is well documented.
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Mr Intruder
Suzuki800.com Founder ... & ... Senior Administrator
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:54 pm

Better to just keep a descent lead acid battery in good condition. Lithium batteries are great but the total cost you just quoted is £135 now that money is better spent elsewhere on the bike. If a guy needs a new battery for his bike, then it's better and cheaper to wait until it's needed and do a battery upgrade as I have done ( LINK ). The battery capacity check that it has on it is all very good but what a pain in the arse to take the seat of the bike to see what condition your battery is in. I simply keep my bike on the bike charger that I already have which fits all my 12v batteries, from the smallest 12v 12 AH battery up to the biggest I have which is a 12v 70 AH battery.
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OldManYam
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:37 pm

The best VFM is from conventional lead acid (or sealed type) batteries when used in our bikes.

The main benefit from Lithium Ion batteries is the higher 'energy density' (Higher power to weight). This would be an advantage on an electric propelled vehicle, but not that much benefit when used as an ancillary power source (Except maybe on a competition bike).

You would need a dedicated 'Lithium' charger to properly charge the battery, & if you did try to use an 'ordinary' lead acid charger then you run a likely risk of totally damaging the battery (Expensive mistake).

Don't get me wrong, they are a useful development in technology, but not the best VFM solution for a conventional bike.
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Mr Intruder
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:07 pm

With a lead acid battery, when it's losing charge, you would even notice the engine turn slower on it's cranking her up. On a Lithium battery, it will either start it or it won't. I wouldn't even advice a mobility scooter user to use Lithium batteries, simply because one minute they could be going along a road at 4 or 8 mph and the next they could be at a stand still. Lithium batteries have their place but it ain't on a normal road users bike. You either have full power, or you have no power, that's not a battery I could trust in normal use.
I will point this thread out to Doc Cox to get his opinion, he is a battery power guru.
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customerlin
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Wed Dec 24, 2014 8:31 am

Mr Intruder wrote:
Better to just keep a descent lead acid battery in good condition. Lithium batteries are great but the total cost you just quoted is £135 now that money is better spent elsewhere on the bike. If a guy needs a new battery for his bike, then it's better and cheaper to wait until it's needed and do a battery upgrade as I have done ( LINK ). The battery capacity check that it has on it is all very good but what a pain in the arse to take the seat of the bike to see what condition your battery is in. I simply keep my bike on the bike charger that I already have which fits all my 12v batteries, from the smallest 12v 12 AH battery up to the biggest I have which is a 12v 70 AH battery.

I need a new battery yet, because mine is discharged for a long time. I have had problems with the battery because I have some things connected and it discharges the acid battery. I can save one battery using Optimate 4, the bike start in good condition one time, but when I turn off the bike, the battery was dead.... the battery was discharged when the bike start and don't back to charge running the bike... so I will sell my Optimate 4 on the Internet and upgrade to Optimate Lithium

I hear about starting problems on Lithium Batteries in not really cold weather (around 10ºC), some people turn on the warning lights for a while to heat the battery, the it starts without problem. I don't really ride the bike on winter, I keep it warm in the garage



I have this connector on the bike from an older charger, I can use it to keep the battery always connected to the charger on winter... the bike is always ready. My acid battery brokes because I spent it charging cicles
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Doc Cox
The Nutty Professor
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Fri Dec 26, 2014 8:32 pm

A very interesting thread here, quite a coincidence as I am currently testing some Lion batteries taken from used laptop battery packs, the surprising thing is that out of 92 cells only two were duff but having seen an interesting video on you tube showing the correct way to charge a below voltage Lion battery, so may be able to bring them back to life, the main thing with these is to make sure they are balance charged correctly, this means if you have four cell packs and then run them in series each pack has to be charged seperately, this sounds complicated but once you get your head around the concept its not too bad, the bike battery above will have a seperate balance charging system built into it to ensure proper charging from the bike, Dave is right, Lithium batteries don,t run down like a lead acid battery, when the voltage drops too low to protect the cells the battery just shuts down until recharged, but I would think the manufacturers have taken into account the cold weather performance and will supply information on this matter, this video shows how battery balancing works but you may have to watch it a few times to grasp it fully ( I did )... 
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Mr Intruder
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Fri Dec 26, 2014 8:57 pm

Nigel you need to have a word with yourself, you naughty naughty nutty professor. I was expecting to find you explanation and the photos you showed me earlier, (or is that going to be another thread maybe).
Nigel (Doc Cox) has been looking into building a battery the same size as his bike battery from many many many ect batteries he has been wombaling from old computers. They will when all put together with a clever way of charging them, create a multiple cell battery. When built to the same size as a standard bike battery, create one that is still 12v put has about (60 amp hour) as opposed to the 15 or so that it currently has. it would well be worth its own thread though, as it will be small but have enough cold cranking amps to start a frigging tractor.
Nigel's version will be able to be split up and distributed around the bike as well. Would well be worth its own thread though.


Last edited by Mr Intruder on Fri Dec 26, 2014 8:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Doc Cox
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Fri Dec 26, 2014 8:58 pm

Have just been on the Skyrich site and asked them how the batteries perform in cold weather, will let you know what the answer is, also had a look and they only do lead acid batteries for snowmobiles, but the temperature there is a bit extreme, and the battery charger is nothing special, as long as a charger with a maximum of 2amps charge is used all should be OK. The smart chargers from Aldi should work well
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Doc Cox
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Fri Dec 26, 2014 8:59 pm

Correct Dave that will be another thread...
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Mr Intruder
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:01 pm

Looking forward to that on Doc, that'll make the members think.
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OldManYam
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Fri Dec 26, 2014 11:36 pm

The lithium 'balance charger' in the video is something that RC model aircraft fliers use to charge their lithium polymer batteries. The charging program is very different to that for a lead acid or NiCad/Nimh battery, and using the wrong type of charger can lead to the possibility of cells exploding or catching fire. I've seen this happen. The cheaper versions of RC model chargers are sub £20, but are generally driven off a 12v supply. The ones with a built-in mains transformer are a little more expensive.
 
With that in mind, I would also have some reservations relating to the motorcycles own 'charging' system, which may over charge a lithium battery, & if that is a viable possibility, then so is the chance of catastrophic failure of the lithium battery on a bike.

One characteristic of lithium batteries is that they can yield high power (discharge at rates far higher than lead acid, or conventional batteries). If the discharge gets too high - such as in short circuit, then the lithium battery will tend to go into self destruct mode. (explode or catch fire - or both).

Not trying to put anyone off - but do proceed with caution !
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Doc Cox
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:55 pm

Have just found an interesting video relating to the batteries from laptops, this shows us what they are capable of..


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Doc Cox
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:36 pm

Here is another video using the slightly smaller batteries to make a custom bike battery...




This is it being used to start a Sportster
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customerlin
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:36 pm

WOW! That videos are amazing!!
He talks a little fast for my english skills, but I was impressed when the engines start with those little cells
I have a good new today, my Optimate 4 was sold, so I searched a Lithium Charger on Internet (Aldi Supermarkets only sales food in Albacete, Spain)

There is not a high difference price betwen the 0,8A and the 5A version, so I think I will choose the higher one (it is 70GBP shipping included to Spain on an Online Shop)



How it works
1.     Pre-qualification test: OptiMate Lithium displays the condition of the battery before charging and measures environment temperature. The ampmatic charge program is selected according to temperature and battery condition.
2.     Low Volts recovery: The safeTº protection mode controls charging during this sensitive battery SAVE stage, to ensure that an over discharged battery will be correctly and safely recovered. Tests are conducted through-out the SAVE program to determine if the battery has successfully recovered and can advance to BULK CHARGE.
3.     Bulk charge: the ampmatic processor actively adjusts charge current to match battery capacity and condition, achieving a complete charge in the shortest time. Progress is tracked against the ideal charge curve for LiFePO4 batteries.
4.     Short-circuited / dead cell check: Charge progress is tracked against the ideal LiFePO4 charge curve, internal damage will be detected and unnecessary charging is prevented of a battery that cannot be recovered.
5.     Absorption and equalisation: for 10 minutes the current is delivered in pulses with voltage controlled between 14.0 and 14.3V, aiding cell voltage equalisation and improving the battery's overall power delivery.
6.     Charge verification: the voltage is limited at 13.6V while the ampmatic processor monitors the current absorbed by the battery. If this reveals a less than optimal charge the program reverts to absorption for a further 10 minutes.
7.     Voltage retention test: is conducted for 30 minutes during which no charge current is delivered, with 5 possible test results indicating the battery's general state of health. A green (voltage > 12.7V) result extends the test up to 12 hours, to check for excessive self discharge or higher than expected power loss through the vehicle’s electrical system.

8.     Charge maintenance: The 12 hour MAINTENANCE CHARGE CYCLE consists of 30 minute float charge periods at a voltage of 13.6V followed by and alternating with a 30 minute ‘rest’ (no charge current) periods. During the float charge period current is delivered only if the battery has lost charge due to connected vehicle circuitry. A refresh cycle may be performed if the charge level has dropped significantly. The voltage retention test and maintenance charge cycle will repeat 24 hours after the start of the very first test and continue to repeat for as long as the charger remains connected. The alternating charge and ‘rest’ maintenance program protects the battery against over discharge by connected vehicle circuitry, making it ideal for indefinite and 100% safe long term maintenance charging.

Code:
http://www.optimate.co.uk/optimate%20lithium.htm



Operation temperature range:-40°C / +50°C
I think this month I will choose the charger and the battery the next one, this way I will have time to find a good one
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Doc Cox
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Sat Jan 03, 2015 8:41 am

Hi Merlin, pleased you like the videos, that is quite a charger you have found there  wow
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customerlin
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Sat Jan 03, 2015 9:43 am

OK! I ordered yet from a web specialized on lithium batteries

Shipping is free to Spain (I think is around 8-10GBP to UK)

The web is in spanish, I think that Google Translator could help!!!

Code:
http://www.bateriasdelitio.eu/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=8&cat=Cargadores+de+Bateria
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OldManYam
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:55 am

Yes - that charger sounds ideal for the cylindrical Lithium Ion based battery packs, but I remain unsure of the safety of Lithium packs on the actual bike, being charged by the bikes own charging system, which will not be a sophisticated as the dedicated 'Lithium' battery charger.  

I reckon the battery packs shown above will be made up as 4 cells in series (4s), each cell is nominally 3.7v, so a '4s' battery would be a nominal 14.8v. This is higher than the 13.4v of a standard 'healthy' lead acid battery. So if the bike charging system shuts down before, or around 14.8-15v then it 'should' be OK. A lithium cell being charged goes over the nominal voltage & gets critical around 4.2v - so at '4s' that would be 16.8v - above that voltage, which could be achieved by over-charging, the battery is likely to go into self destruct mode - & that is going to take place on you bike ..... with the attendant explosion & fire risk. If it 'goes wrong', it will do so in a much bigger way than a 'dead' lead acid battery. There WILL be acrid smoke & flames that could potentially wreck other components on your bike. There are plenty of videos on 'You Tube' that will show you what happens when a lap top battery explodes due to over-charging - take a look at some if you doubt me.

As for the capacity of Lithium Ion cells - the current best for power tools is typically 4.0amp/hr but there may be a number of cells ganged in parallel to give a higher capacity than the basic cell (i.e. The pack on the 'Sportster' looks to be two parallel banks of four cells in series - known as 4s2p - so that would give a nominal 14.8v and 8.0amp hour and four banks in parallel would be 4s4p giving a nominal 14.8v and 16.0amp hour etc ).

Having used lithium ion & lithium polymer batteries for various 'non-motorcycle' applications I am not surprised by the video which show a little battery doing a 'big-job'. As mentioned before it is the energy density & high discharge rates that make lithium batteries impressive. They will drain at much higher current levels than a lead acid battery - so the higher amps and higher nominal voltage mean there are more watts available to crank over & start up your engine - this makes the lithium battery appear like a quart in a pint pot - which it is - but it needs to be used with respect. I've had a lithium battery explode & set fire on a non-bike installation due to a charging problem - it ain't a pleasant experience !

For me, on a road going bike (i.e. non-competition machine), I personally would stick to using a lead acid battery & carefully maintain it over period of light use. I'm not saying don't use lithium - I'm merely saying be aware of the potential issues as this technology brings with it 'challenges' you will not have met before.

  Yam
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simbo
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Sat Jan 03, 2015 6:58 pm

Interesting read Yam 
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customerlin
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:50 am

Hi all!!

I found an interesting item that can solve the problems of the Lithium Battery Start in bad weather conditions, in case they don't work properly on these conditions

It is a Battery Starter with the size of a mobile phone that has 150 Amp of Capacity (It can start almost every vehicle). 

It keeps the charge until 6 months and can also be used to charge USB Phones or 19,5V Laptops

They cost around 125€

They are called MiniBatt Pro, there are some models, here you can take a look to the caracteristics of one of them (web in Spanish, sorry) 

Link MiniBatt Pro

They have a demostrative video too:



They are around 2 months on the marked, so they are a brand new novelty

By the way, I'm still looking for a Cheap Lithium Battery for the Bike, prices are lowering, so I wonder I will choose one soon

Cheers!

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customerlin
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:57 am

MiniBatt ST is the choice for Motorcycles



It has a start power of 200A
It charges in 6 hours in a home plug

Link MiniBatt ST

Demostrative video:



I wonder if it has a SAE Plug compatible with the Optimate Lithium battery connector, this way you don't have to remove the seat to start the bike, just place the connector into the tools compartment of the bike
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Doc Cox
The Nutty Professor
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:19 am

The Mini Batt. is certainly a powerfull piece of equipment, shows how much battery technology is advancing, slowly but surely charging up all my cells, managed to to beg/borrow/scrounge some more from other members of the family this week and other sources, will start making up a prototype today, good points "Yam" Lithium batteries do have to be treated with a lot of respect, would not have been so far on now if I hadn,t seen the avaliability of individual cell chargers on You Tube, have a look at this guys site, a lot of interesting information





It,s well worth subscribing to his site.
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Ken1964
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:05 pm

My goodness, time are changing for batteries, really changing.
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Mr Intruder
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:57 pm

The thing to remember is that these batteries ain't cheap but neither is a night out. The security of mind knowing your bike will always start is great & if you change your bike, swap the battery & keep that piece of mind. When you consider that it will change bikes as often as you want another new one, it ain't that expensive at all.
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customerlin
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:20 am

I asked on MiniBatt web and they told me that a SAE connector will be available into a month, but still has not price, for the Minibatt Pocket CMB2 (enough to start a motorcycle for 89€)

Let's wait for the accesory



MiniBatt Pocket CMB2
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