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Suzuki 800 Intruder Club & Forum

A UK Site Dedicated To The Suzuki C800, VL800, VX800, M800, VZ800, VS800, C50, M50 Model Intruder / Boulevard / Marauder
 
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 REFUSES to go into gear

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DANGERTASTIC
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PostSubject: REFUSES to go into gear   Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:50 am

I could use an outside perspective here guys. I've been having some problems lately with cable adjustment getting worse. Today while in traffic I notice the bike creeps forward on me.

So I adjust the cable at the engine, lever, reset it to zero a couple times and here's what I get....

1). I adjust it all the way in so the clutch is disengaged.....and it's impossible to shift into first, neutral. It won't shift smooth. Very difficult going into neutral.

2) I adjust the lever cable to the point it shifts nice.....and the clutch slips very bad when rolling on throttle.

I've tried lots of in between adjustments. It's either slipping, or not shifting.

Could it be shifter pawl? I replaced the clutch 6 months ago. It's got oil but was a little low earlier today. I replaced the cable a couple months ago.

Any help is greatly appreciated!
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Two-Bears
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:36 am

Hello DANGERTASTIC,
Clutch adjustment is quite finicky on the VZ800 Marauder  I strongly suggest you read the clutch adjustment section of the manual,, make sure that the clutch leaver/arm on the engine side is at 90 degrees to the engine, main adjustment at engine side of cable after fully loosening off clutch leaver end on the handle bar,,,, If the bike is creeping forward then the clutch is not disengaged which to me is incorrect adjustment,,,,when adjusted you must have a good half inch free play at the handle bar leaver or it will definitely slip under load. For want of better words the clutch on these bikes wind up when engaged and will take up that free play,, if the free play is not there in the first place the clutch wind up tightens the cable and causes the clutch to slip and /or difficult shifting
The VZ`s are very well known for the clutch to slip,, up-rated clutch springs are a must along with, in my opinion, a decent quality motorcycle engine oil. If you do a search on this site you will find a good post by OldManYam reference fitting washes to the clutch springs some thing I recommend and do as a matter of course on VZ800 Marauders.
I feel a fault with the pawl/pinion isn't likely as there isn't much to go wrong there and if fitted incorrectly would have shown itself 6 months ago when you replaced the clutch.
Good luck and I Hope this is of some help mate.
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DANGERTASTIC
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Mon Feb 09, 2015 1:06 pm

Roger that. I replaced the clutch 6 months ago along with a set of Vesrah springs. A new torque back limiter too.

I think maybe my clutch cable might have stretched a little. Since I have drag bars on it....it makes the cable tight and adjustments are harder to do.

I have tried finding the manual online and it's not showing it to me. If anyone has a pic of the page I would greatly appreciate it
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alfie92
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:31 pm

97 - 2002 VZ800 Service Manual Hi Danger have you tried this link?.
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DANGERTASTIC
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:16 pm

No but I have it now! Thank you.

There is no way I can get that much play in my clutch lever. The adjustment is bottomed out on the lock nut.
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Two-Bears
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:07 am

Hello,
Has this fault started recently or was it present 6 months ago when you changed the clutch ?,,,, I know it is a poor picture but is the engine side clutch actuation arm at 90 degrees to the engine ( like the pic),,,, if you think the cable is to tight due to your handle bar mod try changing the cable or, as I have done so in the past, I have removed the braket you see at the top right of the pic,, the bracket that the clutch cable lock nuts tighten onto... and made a new one... modified to give me more adjustment,,, as you have said " the adjustment is bottomed out ".
 





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DANGERTASTIC
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:53 am

It just started the other day I traffic. After I replaced the clutch a few months ago it's been great. Sunday while running around, i noticed it wanting to drive forward while the clutch was in. I got it home and it was about half quart low on oil. Which was also odd.

Anyway, after the engine is off, it will shift through the gears fine....while running, it's difficult to up shift and downshift. I just don't understand why it's all of a sudden a problem.

And yes the bar mod is definately making it tighter
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Two-Bears
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:07 am

Hello mate,
Ummm half a quart of oil is a lot on a vz800 Marauder,,, that works out at about 0.47 litres,, the bike only takes 1.7 litre ( 1.8 US Quarts) to change the oil so you lost just about 1/3 off your oil,,, did you find the leak ?.
Clutch drag can only be happening if the clutch is not fully disengaging when the clutch leaver is fully depressed/pulled in e.g. adjustment,,, old crap engine oil can also cause drag and poor shifting or internal/mechanical damage to the clutch.
Did you have the clutch adjusted as per the manual after you changed the clutch ?
and did it have the 1/2 inch free play at the leaver end ?.
If the adjustment wasn't set correctly and you were running with low oil it`s possible that the clutch has over heated and warped the metal clutch plates over the past 6 months,, this could account for clutch drag/bike creeping in traffic and poor shifting.
Try draining the oil ( I know you have probably toped it up) and check it,,, does it smell burnt,, get your fingers in it,, does it feel grainy is there any bits in it !.
Have you changed the Bars since the new clutch ?,,, if the cable is tight the clutch could have been constantly slipping slightly ( remember the clutch wind up effect in use ) which could have over heated it causing plate warping as suggested above.
let me know what you find mate.
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DANGERTASTIC
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:20 pm

There is no oil leaks on this bike. I park in the garage on a white tile floor. I was confused too. And it doesn't smoke. I wonder if it's the oil filter so I'm gonna drain and replace and change the oil. Something isn't adding up.
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DANGERTASTIC
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:47 pm

Changed the oil last night. And filter. I put two quarts in and it's still just above the BOTTOM fill line. Clutch still dragging on the way to work today and it seems to pull harder now due to new oil.

I found the plastic piece that wraps the end of the clutch cable on the lever side....it's almost gone. That's not gonna make it that much out of adjustment though.

I'm stumped
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DANGERTASTIC
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:24 pm

I have a suspicion that my springs are worn out. The Vesrah ones I just installed last September. Nothing else is making sense. Nothing changed and it was in a period of two days that it started happening
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Two-Bears
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:06 pm

Hello,
I cannot see the springs would be worn out after 6 months,,, there purpose is to provide a clamping effect between the metal and fibre/friction plates,,,, your problem seems to me to be an issue of adjustment, the plates are not separating and stopping the drive,,, this accounts for the poor changing and dragging when stationary in traffic with the clutch pulled in. You could try the Mod I suggested ref the clutch cable mounting bracket,,,,,, but if it was my bike I`d want to know ware that oil went and then I would remove the clutch and inspect everything,,, see if there is any damage, and sort out the clutch cable. these bikes are really finicky ref there clutch adjustment.
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DANGERTASTIC
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Sat Feb 14, 2015 12:27 am

Why?? That's how springs wear out. Constantly being compressed/decompressed. Everything fails. I have only narrowed it down to a few things and I just can't rule that out as a possibility quite yet. I just don't know how else to explain it all of a sudden being so far out of adjustment to the point of dragging this bad.

I don't know what traffic is like around your parts, but my bike is all I own. It gets a lot of miles everyday and the clutch is engaged/disengaged about ten thousand freakin times lol.

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Two-Bears
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Sat Feb 14, 2015 5:55 am

Hello DaNgEr,
Yes springs can wear out,, when they do wear they become weaker so in fact wouldn't apply as much clamping pressure to the plates which would be indicative of a slipping clutch but you say it pulls well,,, Vesrah springs you have fitted are I believe 15% uprated compared to original and are designed to last a lot more than the six months use you have had from them so far,, years in fact,,, the first bike I but vesrah springs in was on a 1999 bike in 2000,, the bike had 2500 miles on it then and has 78000 on it now after 14 years and I believe in that time the clutch has been used many more times than you have in the last 6 months,,,, I know it is frustrating for you with this fault and all I`m trying to say is I don't believe your new springs have gone weak all of a sudden and if they had I cannot see how they will cause your poor gear changing and creeping in traffic,,, these issues suggest to me that when you are pulling in the clutch leaver the plates are not separating fully which again to me is nearly always an adjustment problem
If there is mechanical damage e.g. warped plates ( which can happen as suggested above ) or a snapped spring can cause disengaging issues if the broken part is effecting movement. These bikes are known to be awkward with there adjustment and it is not uncommon for clutch bolts to snap,, when refitting the clutch they have to be torqued carefully with a lb./inch wrench,,, I do know someone who over tightened his clutch bolts ( no use of torque wrench ) not to snap immediately but the bolt head came away 10 miles down the road on road test, he heard in his words " a funny noise" then it went quite,, we convinced him to check, he was going to leave it, and he found the snapped bolt head, thankfully all bolts were replaced and torqued.
In your case you have new clutch,, new springs,, new oil, new torque back limiter as well ( never known any one needing to replace that particular part was it broken ? ), and the bike appears to pull harder with the new oil ( no slipping whilst under load ),, the down side is suddenly you have lost 1/4 to 1/3 of your engine oil have no leaks and you have a known issue with your clutch cable being tight due to replacing your handle bars,, you are having selecting problems both up and down the box,, and creeping when in traffic with you clutch pulled in,,.
I`m as frustrated as you mate but as I suggested above I think it`s time you pulled it apart and inspected everything. I find myself hoping you find something simple to fix the problem. Please let me know what you find and good luck.
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DANGERTASTIC
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:10 pm

Roger that. I wasn't arguing. Like stated above, I just can't rule anything out until I pull it apart.

I torqued every clutch bolt to spec. Something like 7in.lbs if I remember correctly. Or 27 nm. I am wishing I would have replaced them cause I hear they suck Nd break easily.

The torque back limiter snapped while I was performing the clutch replacement. I had everything torqued down, about to put the case back together, was nowhere near the bike, and it sounded like my ratchet fell and hit the ground....it was the torque limiter snapping in two places. I didn't realize until I put everything back together.

I'm good with a wrench. I will figure it out. Right now it's simply time, or lack OF. My day off is tomorrow so I'm looking for a USPS Priority envelope to make a gasket so I can pull everything apart
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captain crash
Mentally Deficient lunatic ..... & ..... Site Moderator
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Sat Feb 14, 2015 8:07 pm

Interesting read this guys, wish I could add to it but its all good reading  
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Two-Bears
* VZ Guru *
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:35 am

Hello DaNgEr,

Fingers crossed you find the cause and it`s an easy fix mate.
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DANGERTASTIC
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:34 pm

Any thoughts on replacing the clutch bolts. The ones for the basket I believe are 6x40.... The hardware store will have them I'm sure.

Has anyone replaced the shit ones that snap if you breathe on them wrong?
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Two-Bears
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:56 pm

Hello DaNgEr,
I have replaced them in the past but they are a hardened bolt and I have played safe and bought Suzuki OEM bolts and torqued down carefully. I believe you are correct, Their are 8 bolts in total 4 at 6x40 and 4 at 6x32.5,,, I have known people fit them in the wrong holes,,,  fitting the big wave washer, that goes on before the clutch plates, back to front is another common fault I used to see..
Good luck, and I hope this is of some help mate.
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DANGERTASTIC
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:48 pm

Yessir. All of this is helpful and I really appreciate your input. The longer ones go into the clutch basket. The shorter bolts go into the back limiter.

It's backwards from what you would think
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Two-Bears
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:47 am

Hello DaNgEr,
Have you found anything at fault/broken that may give a clue to solving your recent problems ?.
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DANGERTASTIC
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:43 pm

Yessir. I just got it apart not 3 minutes ago. Okay so I pulled the clutch cover off, the oil is clean....except what looks like water??? But I thinking is clutch material, ONLY in the very bottom in one spot. It's not through out the oil..

Also, the center nut backed off. I can't remember the washer being concave. I remember it being a flat washer. I haven't pulled the clutch basket off yet I only got that far
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DANGERTASTIC
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:01 pm

This thing is for SURE getting some red loc tite. I cant believe it came loose. I cranked it down with an air gun it should have held.

Has anyone had one come loose?
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DANGERTASTIC
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:26 pm

I got everything apart. Everything looks really good minus the nut being loose.mthere was MINIMAL play....but enough to affect it.

Nothing is worn. Bearings look good.

I notice I have two rings for the clutch plates. One is a washer that is conical, and there is another one that looks like a spacer I don't remember being there before
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DANGERTASTIC
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:05 pm

Okay so everything is back together. I need to get a torque wrench on the nut, which side faces out? The crowned side or flat side??

Why does it have to be midnight in England during afternoon here lol
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Two-Bears
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:39 am



Hope this is of some help mate.
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Proudtexson
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:50 pm

DaNgEr wrote

Why does it have to be midnight in England during afternoon here lol

It's 5 oclock somewhere: Alan Jackson  
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DANGERTASTIC
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:10 pm

So I just got the gasket and new bolts. Everything together and torqued down.      

 Dumping fuel out of the front carb so I gotta pull the tank Im sure the float bowl is stuck after 2 weeks of shit gas in it.

 Also got some nice foamy oil. Fucking great
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DANGERTASTIC
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Sat Mar 07, 2015 7:04 pm

So After some investigation and research....Im thinking (and hoping) its just the water pump seal leaking.

 Im getting foamy oil. 

I had the pipes off both jugs, and the inside of the exhaust ports are dry. If it was a head gasket shouldn't there be coolant drops inside of the ports?  HEEEEELLLLP!!!

 Dammit this bike is pissing me off lately
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Two-Bears
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Sun Mar 08, 2015 7:56 am

Hello mate,
your post on the 23rd February you found water in the oil,, and now you have foamy oil umm, when water pump seals go the pump usually leaks coolant to the outside of the vehicle I.E a sodding big puddle under your bike, you haven't reported any puddles,, and I have never known a water pump seal to go and coolant leak into the oil galleries. If you have water in the oil It is quite possible the head gasket is gone,, first step remove the headstock cover on the ignition key side and remove the coolant filler cap and see if you have lost coolant,, secondly remove the spark plugs and spin the engine over and see if water comes out of the plug holes if it does you will have narrowed it down to front or rear leaking cylinder gasket,,,, if it dose it`ll probably be the head gasket,, water can seep into the bores and drain past the pistons into the sump or a brake can happen in the head gasket between an oil gallery and a water passage,.
The reason a say check the coolant filler is that if the gasket has gone between an oil gallery and water passage you may have oil in the radiator/coolant and the second thing is if you don't have oil and the coolant level is ok, inspect the oil filler cap,, I have known them to crack/split and let water into the clutch cover casing.
Let us know what you find mate.
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DANGERTASTIC
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:06 pm

There is no leaks on this bike. Nothing drips onto the ground besides fork oil.

I checked the coolant overflow, no oil. I pulled the bottom line into the pump. No oil. Coolant only.

I had the plugs out and cranked it over a few times. Some fuel shot out but that's about it.

It ran great last night. I just figured with a blown head gasket that I would have some coolant inside the cylinders
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Two-Bears
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:09 am

Did you loose any coolant at all, the system only holds 1.4 litres, had the coolant level dropped ?. If the gasket has gone on the cylinder seal then I would expect some sign of water in the bore but if the water/coolant level has dropped low then maybe there is not enough water to leak into the bores on a short spin,, but that said if the gasket had gone between a water passage and an oil gallery then I would expect some sign of oil ( however small ) in the cooling system, the water in the oil is clearly coming from some ware,, if you have a blown head gasket I would expect the coolant level to have dropped,, if it hasn't then the water is getting in from outside,, in that case have you checked the oil filler cap ?.
Time for a cylinder compression check.
You said " It ran great last night " I wouldn't be running the engine with water in the oil,,, its not difficult to knock out the crank mains and big end bearings.
I feel for you mate,, your not having much luck.
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katsd
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:44 pm

Hi DaNgEr

I'm afraid I can add nothing constructive to this thread.  Just wanted to say that I hope you get it sorted - I know how frustrating it is to chase a problem around.  I really feel for you bud - all the best with solving it - hope the site's given you some direction.

Dave
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DANGERTASTIC
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:16 pm

I really appreciate the replies and positive feedback. I'm thinking water got in from the outside through an aftermarket filler cap that I have replaced. I changed the oil again. No water.

The color is also good. It's running just like it did before now.

I found some flange bolts on eBay. N class 10 nitride. Torqued them down. Everything has been good this week.

Also i proposed to my girl Thursday night so my luck changed!, haha thanks all
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katsd
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:26 pm

Mate - that's fantastic news - on both counts. Can't wait for my wedding invite. When's the stag night ?
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peardrop3
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:27 pm

Well done on all points matey! I think we're all happy to hear the good news that the bike is sorted & also the news that you proposed to your lady BUT you do realise that you'll either have to put the pillion seat back on or buy her a bike!!! 
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rossmofo
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:15 pm

Your a glutton for punishment ...fix one problem .... only kidding ..congratulations ...buy her a Busa so she can beat you home and have dinner ready after a ride out together ...
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DANGERTASTIC
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:26 pm

Haha thanks guys. I have a Savage that we take during the summer. It's pretty much stock.

No riding for her though she has a bun in the oven....we found out a few months back. About 21 weeks along now.

I'm working on the child seat and I came up with a couple great ideas

DanGeR BabBY by DANGER!1, on Flickr
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rossmofo
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:35 pm

Good luck fella ... get a sidecar ....actually one to match your bike would look great ...
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Two-Bears
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:17 pm

Hello DaNgEr,
Well done mate, well pleased you have sorted the problem,,, Like the idea for the child seat, get the little ones interested in biking at an early a age,,, Congratulations to you and your lady mate.
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simbo
.. Mechanical Tart .. .. Site Moderator ..
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:51 pm

Congratulations on all three counts 
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DANGERTASTIC
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:19 pm

Thank you all. Very much appreciated.
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Mr Intruder
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PostSubject: Re: REFUSES to go into gear   Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:21 pm

Brilliant news, well done.
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