Dissecting Rattlers

Hi all
New to what appears to be a splendid forum.
Did the welcome intro and got splashed with warm welcomes :}  
Thank you all.

I have a conundrum of minor proportions !!
Bought a Marauder vz800.2000. 15k on the clock approx a week ago . 
I initially walked away from it due to a lot of rattling on the OEM exhaust but after a sizable price decrease went back and made her mine  ..
So glad I did as its a dream to ride and exactly what I wanted as my first Big Bike.
The Dealer who purchased my little Virago (Sob)   has suggested and offered to Dissect the exhaust and remove the innards to stop the rattling . The front pots down pipe passes under the frame and the rattling appears to be mostly there.
If I understood him right he is suggesting cutting the pipes horizontally and opening the tubes up.

The question is do I let him cut here open and will the bike be really loud and more importantly Legal ??
I do like the look of the Original pipes and mufflers and cant really afford to splash out on anything of sooped up proportions..
Is there an easier fix or other options   
Thanks in advance
Mark

Is there a chance it could be the heat shield rattling? They're usually held on with jubilee clips out of site, I'd be inclined to find what's causing the rattle before cutting the exhaust.

Missed the intro so..welcome Mark.

Gut them...ride it loud and proud ;D

Only allow them to gut them if they are prepared to reject the bike if needed. Rattles should be reasonably easy find.

I wonder if a bit of the once upon a time old exhaust gasket dropped into the header pipe when it was once being changed and that is the rattle?

You could be on to something there Crash but I would have thought the shop would look into silly stuff but you never know, I have no faith in shops so called mechanics.

are they going to do the work for free? does it affect the ride/performance of the bike? if not don't bother and in your own time try to find out what is causing the rattle probably nothing much and cutting open the exhaust seems a bit over the top to me

Exhausts are just tubes with no moving parts. Remove them, shake and find what's loose that shouldn't be. Header bolts or shield clamps as pointed out above could be the culprit. One other theory - if someone has drilled out down the middle, loose debris could be trapped. If the price is lower and it is only pipes then the cost of new ones may be covered. Gutting is such fun - if all else fails, what is there to lose?

Hello Spudgun,
This is/was a fairly common fault with the VZ800`s, the front pipe is a double skin affair and the rattle is usually the two pipes touching inside,  usually when the pipe is cold if you clout the front pipe at the top with the flat of your hand you will probably hear it rattle. If this is the fault the common fix was to remove the front heat shield and drill an 1/8 inch or so hole carefully just in the outer pipe and not through both pipes,,, grind the point of a self tapping screw or self tapping bolt so it is flat and screw it in to touch the inner pipe and tighten it,,, it is supposed to lock the inner pipe to the back of the outer pipe,,,, some people even drilled two or more holes and MIG welded through to lock the pipes together,, when done re-fit the heat shield and it covers the screw/bolt head.
Touching on what John has said about someone may have drilled down the middle of the exhausts at some time I agree with him on this,,, the VZ800 pipe innards appear to be made from much harder metals than the intruder of the same age and a very good quality core drill was required to remove the baffle,, I have come across two VZ`s ware people have tried and gave up,,, one of them did have a rattle afterwards which was the remains and debris from the attempt to de-baffle,, but simply removing pipes (easy job) and shaking the lose stuff out sorted that.
I would look to the first remedy first though as it was fairly common.
Hope this is of some help mate.

Always sure to get well informed and knowledgeable answers from John (Two bears), a real VZ Guru.    

Like some people sugnast earlier. Check heat sheilds and fittings so they are tight.
If you decide to go on With the diseztion of the pipes i would love to get a writeup or some pictures on that Since i have a pair of old pipes that i would like to make completley open and design them My way.

Hi all
Thanks very much for the informed replies.
I'm off this weekend and I think I,ll start simple with the heat shields. This must have been an ongoing issue because on closer (Quick) inspection both pipes have small Allen bolts screwed into the lower ends of the down pipes. Looks like someone has tried a quick fix previous.Slowly Slowly is the order of the day.
Will I need new exhaust seals/rings at the head if I whip the pipes off  ????
Plus I've discovered she doesn't like standing in traffic. shortly after the fan kicks in she cuts out but re starts straight away on the button ?? Odd but dumbfounding
Thanks again
Mark

Hi Mark, I'm crap with electrics so I'm only guessing, but it sounds like when it gets warm and the fan kicks in it's drawing to much electric or the bikes not producing enough electric, Alternator/regulator problem perhaps? I'm sure someone with more electrical knowledge will chip in, As for the exhaust gaskets?  It's a bit hit and miss really, sometimes they leak and other times they don't, I've changed my exhausts 3 times now without renewing the gaskets, But I always try to get the flanges as square as possible to the gaskets before tightening them up proper.

Hi Simbo
Thanks for all the advice . I'm gonna have a proper look at her this weekend to determine what the rattle is etc . My Bro also bought the same bike a few weeks ago so there's plenty to chew over. 
So glad I found this forum with all its knowledge etc.
Spent hours stripping the Virago to get her functioning in a rideable fashion after buying a turd off ebay !! Hope the Rauder will be much more fun and reliable.
Hows tricks in sunny Chadderton ?? 
Cheers mate
Mark

These bike have a 3 stage charging system, I am hoping Two-Bears (John) chips in with some advice on your bike as I can only check mine to see what it puts out at the different RPM's & mine is a VL800 rather than a VZ Could possibly be the same but 10 years saw a lot of changes & I am not 100% sure of which they were over those years & model changes off the top of my head.
However I am sure the they should be kicking out a huge amount of power at tickover & less & less as the RPM's increase. Will look into this more if Two-Bears (John) doesn't pop in with the answer.

Alls good in Sunny Chadderton Mate   I'm sure you'll love the Rauder once you get the niggles sorted.

Thanks Fellas
I,ll check back in a day or two for the updates and replies.
Big Thanks - Really helpful stuff...
Simbo - Mr I - Two Bears
I,ll keep you all up to speed with the progress etc.
Mark

Mark & others, if you take the pipes off & the seals look ok use some universal silicon sealer to make a seal, it's an old trick i use on the Velo etc & does work. No problems with colour either as i'dv used clear, white & brown in the past with no probs.

Hi spudgun , fab name that is ,,, brings childhood memories back so it does,,,,,  the very first thing I would check /do is make sure your idle speed is 1000 - 1100rpm, nearer 1100rpm is better, the fan has a 60 watt motor which has a 5 amp draw on the charging/ battery system and that is a canny thump to the system if your just sitting their on tick over,,, most people have these bikes ticking over far to slowly and it does cause problems like stalling when the fan cuts in I know of three VZ`s this has happened to, Does your fan cut in really quickly as the temperature switch closes at 105 degrees Celsius that's fairly hot, even when ridden for a while my VZ800 can stand and idle for 15 plus mins before the fan comes on it shouldn't really come on due to heat just stopping at a junction or roundabout, check the coolant level mate, The radiator filler cap is behind the right hand side head stock cover, use distilled water and preferably a 50-50 mix with anti-freeze if top up needed, the system only holds 1.46 litres in total nobody ever checks the coolant level..
if you still think you may have a charging issue, which usually shows signs by having symptoms like a sluggish battery when trying to start the bike (their is another sluggish starting issuer though), remove the two side covers and check the connecting blocks and wires particularly on the left hand side,, you will see the starter relay, it has a green cover, lift the cover and check all the wires and block connecters around here for burning and melted wires connecters blocks the yellow wires and red wire are for the generator, they are known to have corrosion in the connecters and early ones had a poorly crimped splice, all this resulted in high resistance and heat build up melting wires and connecters which just escalates an already shitty problem, I would pull the relays out and check the wires behind the relay mountings,, if you do have problems their is a mod to solve it apart from cleaning all the connections.
What a bugger with your rattling exhaust, I`ve included a link to so you can see how to gut your exhaust if you want to,,, I didn't do the full gut I just drilled 6 12mm holes around the exhaust end plate as I was being nice to my neighbours for early hour getaways ( stuffed that now with the V&H CRUSERS on my M800 ), I agree with sim, I've never needed to replace the gaskets , as sim says square them up and tighten evenly,,, but I have had problems with other bikes and agree with peter use silicon if in dought,,,I have also put the clutch renew link as well because if it hasn't been done it will be needed eventually as the clutch slips under power.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiLqW6uJrc4&list=UUKQXavImZC_aVeRnbP7o-eg
 
 and the clutch
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULBZVEf8bKc&list=UUKQXavImZC_aVeRnbP7o-eg

Excellent reply John! Very informative  

I new (hoped) John would reply before I had to research, a real guru.  

Seems you & John make a good team Dave!

I agree Peter   We have some clever people on here that love what they do & love to share the knowledge & passion they've acquired. John is a real asset and so is Dave it's true but so is Sim and Alfie & Doc and lots of others that I love to read from, not forgetting yourself Peter. We all have a common interest and a desire to help & share with others. That's part of the reason I love being a biker and a member of this site in particular, the best community of people that I have ever had the pleasure of being involved with

I concur, great members on here.  

I only tinker CC but i tinker with what i know best, my bike but i'm no expert as i learnt from others who were there before me. Thanks for adding me to a list though.
My best teachers are now gone to the happy riding grounds but i'm always looking to learn from others if I can.

Gentlemen
I knew this was the place to be.
Many thanks for your informative help and guidance.
I will endeavor to tinker with my beast this weekend and give you an update on the progress.
Thanks again 
PS - Bear , I will check the coolant level !! 
Mark

Hi guy`s,
I just love machines, I love working on them, I like many others  enjoy motorcycling been riding since I was 8 years old on the back of my uncle Bob`s bike going every ware at every opportunity, and I like to help fellow motorcyclists however I can. I only know things from what I have managed to read/learn myself and from asking questions and watching those who know better than I, I am still learning and will always be learning and I shall always be sharing what knowledge I have with anyone that may need help.
As for VZ`s I`ve had three and worked on quite a  few. The VZ800 seemed to be massively popular in USA and Australia but not so much here so I trawled web sites and forums for years, I still have one but don't ride it now as I ride the M800 all the time and the pillion seat is far more comfortable so I am told. Their are a few known problems with the VZ I have just experienced most of them so can give input as to the possible cause and remedy, my input may not be of use to Spudgun ( Ha ha ha, I just love that name) but if not someone my be able to use it as a base and build on it. To me every opinion and input is important and worth considering and that is what we all do,,,we offer a helping hand,, we take part, I for one am grateful for the help I`ve received and for the opportunity via the forum to be able to ask for help, long may it reign.
 
P.S Mark you can endeavour all you want but if, as you say, you will " tinker with my beast" you will go blind young man,,,,, Blind I say,,,, and I certainly don't need to be updated as to how you got on,,, you sick puppy you,,,, go fix your bike and save your eyesight ha ha ha.

   

LOL
Bear your a bad man !!!!!   
You knew what I meant I just didn't put it across well .Thanks for the links, noticed clutch slip on my maiden voyage so clutch link will prove useful.
The coolant level is up to the cap neck so plenty full. Tick over raised a smidgen just need to get out and try it now ??
Unfortunately the weather in Manchester got the better of me and My beast started to get wet !!
Gonna try again tomoz , no sign of any nasties round the electrics.. Had a tap round the front pipes and it seems the rattle is internal front pipe , left mostly. 
Slowly slowly catchy monkey 
Slow progress is better than non.
Love this bike just don't tell the wife !!
Thanks again fellas for the welcome and info
Think I might be on here a lot   
mark

Good on yeh Mark,the more you are on the more we all get our heads together and learn from each other,for we all have things to learn.

OK :aghh: 
This is where it gets interesting !!!
Took my baby out for a run to southport today with my Bro.Good run but some niggles on acceleration which I initially thought was clutch slip , Had a similar issue with the virago that turned out to be a faulty coil.Possibly the same here ?? Ran like a pig then picked up ??Turned to go home and my Bro noticed fluid leaking . turns out its fuel dripping from or near a hole drilled in the nearside downpipe which had a screw missing from a previous fix for the rattle. Is this a faulty coil , Used almost 2 tanks of fuel to cover 110 miles . Made the dash home only to be rear ended by an ethnic taxi driver whilst waiting at lights !!!!!!! what a day 2 hours for the recovery to turn up all because the rear hugger was pushed on to the rear tyre effectively locking the back wheel. :grimreaper: 
Bit of brute force freed it , but the other issues still remain..
any guidance would be much appreciated.
Mark

Sticking float in the carbs possibly? Sorry to hear of your altercation with the taxi driver   Same happened to my son, He got £4k compo if you'd like to sue the fucker for everything he's worth?.

Hi Simbo N All
In the cold light of day there seems to be little damage to the bike except a bent plastic light / No Plate shroud , which mostly hides behind the No Plate. Looks like the chunky tyre took the impact.
Having had time to reflect I'm guessing that the rear carb may have been faulty for some time as the MPG has not been as the seller suggested 120 miles before reserve.85 at best !!
Yesterday proved there are more issues than I thought and more investigation is required .
The front pipe bolt was in place and I hadn't noticed it missing until the leak was spotted.I wonder if the fuel has been pissing out the exhaust unnoticed for some time ??
Had to get the insurance involved to activate the recovery so I,ll be speaking to them shortly !!

Keep you all updated 
Mark

Sorry to hear about your accident Mark,get the bike checked out Mark it be worse than you think after a smash,bearing in mind it was his fault and not yours,he would more than likely take you to the cleaners in it was the other way round.

sue the bastard, claim whiplash, time off work etc... Don't let it go though cos you'll wish you did'nt in the end!

Decided to dismember the old pipes today.
Was a pretty straight forward thing. Tools needed: Angel grinder, Welding machine, permanent marker. Allso a pipecutter for 2" pipes made the job a bit easier to mark where to cut the pipes, but the outer pipe is a bit too soft to cut with the pipecutter.  And a vice made the work a bit easier.
Took me about 2 hours to remove the inner pipes and put everything back together again

Started off with cutting the left pipe at the end, just above the weld where the  pipe goes from 2" down to size. There the inner pipe is just slided together with a "pipe fitting".


First cut. No need to cut the inner pipe at that position.


First section of outer pipe removed. Needed cut it in a few more pieces that i thought to get the inner pipe out.


Remeber to use the permanent marker before you cut the pipes to get them back in the right position.


Both pipes put back together without inner pipes.
Was a bit more welding than i first thought and the chrome is never gonna be the same again. Lucky for me i had decided to paint them black and make some custom heat shields.

Next step is to fit the pipe thats gonna be the connection to the end section to the exhaust.
Make heat shields, and weld brackets for them to the exhausts.

What do you think.... should i continue in this thread or should i make a new one with the the updates ?

Looking good Twenty2, real good. You definately are not scared to dig deep & get to the root of the problem   

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I think the way the thread has gone it is a very informative bit of reading & if your OK with it, I will simply ask Mr Intruder to rename it "Dissecting VZ exhaust rattles & modification thread" or something similar? 
It's your call but there is very relevant info here on the topic that would easily flow into what your doing  

PS This post & your reply will be edited or removed if necessary

Wish I could weld...

Nice job and write up twenty2   Although your post is very relevant to this thread? I believe it deserve's it own thread in the exhaust section as a 'how to' for a common problem on the VZ800   

Love a man that can.  

Nice one Twenty2  
Really helpful and in depth cover of a vz issue.
Thanks for the upload and agree with Simbo , This deserves its own thread.
May have some good news for all after the weekend .
Had some quality time with a new best mate/ bike mechanic and My Beast may well be cured in a similar fashion :} 
Mark 

Thanks guys.

Been doing a bit of thinking on the ratteling issue.
What i noticed when i opened up the pipes is that the inner pipe is only fixed at the top, inside the pipe flange to the cylinder. on the outlet side of the pipes, where it goes down to 1,5" (?) it is just 2 pipes that are fitted into each other. Might be a easy way to fix the rattling if a  0,5 " hole is drilled near the weld where the pipe goes down in size. And just make a weld through that hole.
my idea is that the innerpipes will get welded together in the connecting part. And that the ratteling will stopp.
Just an idea but it seems quite logic, that the pip fitting slides a little bit and then the pipe aint as fixated as it should be.

Morning Cruisers  
Apologies for the absence.
Good news at last !!
After several weeks of on off tragedy I think my Beast  is back on form.
Had the exhaust down tubes welded and the rattling seems to have curtailed somewhat  8) 
They had come adrift at the the tube top and have had welding / surgery but its only a temp fix.
The fuel issue was a little more than a stuck float (although it was sticking) Thanks Simbo.
The bike has done 15K in 14 years and it appears there was a lot of gunk in both the tank and carbs.
More standing around than rolling me thinks.
Even the cutting out in traffic when the fan kicks in seems to have subsided.
Anyway Chocks away :}

Got some questions for you lads that will help me in the future.
My baby has an OEM exhaust and Im told it will need fixing with a new one sooner rather than later.
Its a vz800 (2000) and the nearside pipe passes under the frame.The After market pipe world seems a mine field of models and Id like some guidance please.
I'm not looking for throaty Dinosaur impressions , so the sound isn't that much of an issue . I'm looking for clean lines and ease of fitting. Most of the pipes I've seen seem to feed either between the heads or round the back of pot 2 .
My main concern is having to fabricate hangers or brackets. I don't really want to be welding extra bits on the frame if I can help it !!.I'm looking for a complete system at a bargain price ?? LOL 
The other question is regarding VFM parts . Where to shop ?? I have some clutch slip and will fit another clutch in the near future. Do i shop on Fleebay or are there more helpful , value places out there.
Ps Thanks again for all the helpful , knowledgeable info .
SPUDGUN
Mark

An idea that might work.
There are som universal barackers for 2" pipes that i guess you can mount a bracket for a 1" water pipes. That bracket has a rubber on the inside to prevent ot from tankning damage from vibrations.
Have been thinking about that solutiin My self. But not sure that it would work.

Twenty2 the rubber would not take the heat from the exhaust & would melt.

Yeah . Thats why the rubber damed Clamp should be mounted around the framme and the universal bracket should be mounted at the pipe.it "should" be enough space and air flow on the part between the pipe and the bracket to keep it from Mellringe. But thats just a theory.

We can live in hope  

Or just try it

I am with you on that cause if we didn't try anything we would never get anywhere.  Saying that tho I have seen so many things stuck to heat shields I would want to see someone try it first  

Yeah.. if you dont try your theories, you wont find out if they work

Have gotten the things i need to make the rest of the exhaust. So im gonna try and take the time to fix that during the week. So the pipes are completed and painted.... then its just the heat shields that needs to be formed, polished and mounted. When thats done i can dig deeper on the brackets for mounting. 
Getting there slowly but surely