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Suzuki 800 Intruder Club & Forum
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A UK Site Dedicated To The Suzuki C800, VL800, VX800, M800, VZ800, VS800, C50, M50 Model Intruder / Boulevard / Marauder
 
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 HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade

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v-twin
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katsd
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PostSubject: HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade    HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  Icon_minitimeTue Mar 24, 2015 6:50 pm

Like a few members, I'd been unhappy with the headlight performance, & was looking for a way to upgrade.  
 
I knew from experience that just slapping in a "high performance" bulb would not really make a great (if any) improvement.  I'd been considering an HID kit & had read Justins post - HID fitting - & also Petes - HID Replacement - with interest.  But I've never been sold 100% on HIDs, for a few reasons.  
 
Firstly, I wasn't sure about whether the ballast unit would fit inside my headlight shell, as I have additional wiring in there already.  I'd had them fitted on the Katana, & whilst they were incredibly bright, I was never happy about the slight delay before they came on, also that you had to be sure your lights were switched off before you fired up; they were a pig to adjust -  my mates often complained about being blinded by me & I'd often be flashed by oncoming drivers.  This wasn't a cheap Chinese kit, but an expensive German manufacturer which had been professionally installed by a specialist company in Derby.  But my biggest issue was that after my Kat went up in flames, almost destroying my garage & causing £5500 worth of damage to the bike, a specialist fire investigator strongly suspected that the cause was down to the HID unit shorting & sparking petrol vapour venting from tank - off course, due to the amount of damage, there was no way this could be proved enough to claim against the supplier !! 
 
So I spent (quite) a bit of time scouring the net for alternatives & stumbled across this site - Daniel Stern Lighting - fascinating - if you ever feel the need to spend half a day of your life improving your knowledge on lighting, this is the place to go !!  Scroll down to the Tech section & it gets real interesting.  Under the heading "Relays", this is what I read
 
"WHY USE RELAYS?
 
 
Power for the headlights is controlled by a switch on the dash. This is *not* a great place to tap into the system, for two reasons: The headlamp switch uses tiny, high-resistance contacts to complete circuits, and the wire lengths required to run from the battery to the dashboard and all the way out to the headlamps creates excessive resistive voltage drop, especially with the thin wires used in most factory installations.
 
 
In many cases, the thin factory wires are inadequate even for the stock headlamp equipment. Headlamp bulb light output is severely compromised with decreased voltage. The drop in light output is not linear, it is exponential with the power 3.4. For example, let's consider a 9006 low beam bulb rated 1000 lumens at 12.8 Volts and plug in different voltages: 

10.5V : 510 lumens

11.0V : 597 lumens
11.5V : 695 lumens
12.0V : 803 lumens
12.5V : 923 lumens
12.8V : 1000 lumens
 Rated output voltage
13.0V : 1054 lumens
13.5V : 1198 lumens
14.0V : 1356 lumens
 Rated life voltage
 
14.5V : 1528 lumens"
 
 
 So the nub of it is that a good way to improve your headlights performance is to power directly from the battery, using heavier gauge wire & relays
 
 
"HOW TO SOLVE VOLTAGE DROP
 
 
To bring full power from the electricity producer--the battery or alternator Positive (+) terminal--to the electricity consumer--the headlamps--we must minimize the length of the power path between the producer and the consumer, and we must maximize the electrical current carrying capacity, or wire gauge, of that power path. But we still want to be able to control the headlamps remotely (from the driving seat), so how do we do that? Install relays!"
 
 
(He's not a big fan of HIDs - read his section "Thinking of converting to HID?" - very interesting.)
 
I knew from my (very limited) electrical knowledge, that the thicker the wire, the less the voltage drop, so I decided that was the way to go.  Daniel Stern does a relay kit, but does not include wiring, which was fine, but then I came across this site - Eastern Beaver.  Sent a couple of emails to the guy, answered all my questions rapidly, so plumped for that one.  Arrived yesterday (four days from Japan!!).  This morning I took the headlight out & had a poke round to see where it would fit - it's a bit of a tight squeeze, but it all goes in 
 

HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  <a href=HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  DSC08970_zpsz2hysn57" />

It's all plug & play, but there are instructions on how to splice in into your existing wiring.  I know its a bit manic in there at the moment - next job is to trim some of the excess.   Took the tank off & ran the wiring along the top rail & onto the battery.

HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  <a href=HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  DSC08971_zpsuepd16ow" />

Checked it all worked & fitted everything back together.  No way of telling how much of an improvement it is, but in a dark garage, it appears to be a lot brighter. 
 
Please don't think I'm knocking HIDs, it's just to me they're a bit of a sledgehammer/walnut approach, & having a bad experience previously, wanted an alternative.
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v-twin
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PostSubject: Re: HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade    HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  Icon_minitimeTue Mar 24, 2015 7:05 pm

I might just whack my voltmeter across my headlight to see what the voltage is this weekend, I am going to fit my USB Charger on my handlebar and will have the tank off so I might add a relay for the headlight if the voltsdrop is to low. Any news re your exhausts? and hows the foot?
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Mr Intruder
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PostSubject: Re: HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade    HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  Icon_minitimeTue Mar 24, 2015 7:11 pm

White light bulbs will always give better visability than normal incandescent bulbs.

InfiniteReality likes this post

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katsd
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PostSubject: Re: HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade    HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  Icon_minitimeTue Mar 24, 2015 8:44 pm

v-twin wrote:
I might just whack my voltmeter across my headlight to see what the voltage is this weekend, I am going to fit my USB Charger on my handlebar and will have the tank off so I might add a relay for the headlight if the voltsdrop is to low. Any news re your exhausts? and hows the foot?
Foot's going fine thanks - although I'm still being cautious about how much time I spend on it.  Not expecting the exhaust for another couple of weeks, but I may be able to pick the powder coating up Thursday - give me something to do on  the first day I'm allowed to drive!!
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simbo
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PostSubject: Re: HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade    HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  Icon_minitimeTue Mar 24, 2015 10:16 pm

Sounds good Dave, anything that makes for a brighter light is an improvement HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  3498837457  I've absolutely no idea about lighting and stuff like that, so it's always nice to read different idea's  HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  2170595768 

ps. my eyes lit up when I spotted the link to 'Eastern Beaver'  hbb Unfortunately it wasn't quite what I had visualised  HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  474255
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katsd
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PostSubject: Re: HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade    HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  Icon_minitimeTue Mar 24, 2015 10:26 pm

Yeah - rather unfortunate choice of name.  The Daniel Stern site is well worth a scan - really interesting stuff about lighting.
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v-twin
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PostSubject: Re: HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade    HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  Icon_minitimeTue Mar 24, 2015 10:54 pm

I not sure if I would fit a HID on my bike as they are illegal on bikes and an instant MOT failure (plus I can not be bothered to swap the lamp out prior to an MOT and then re-fit it). I have yet to see an aftermarket HID that works properly, all they seem do to is blind everyone and advertise the fact they are fitted (plod magnet). I have fitted a Bosch 90+ and it made a massive difference, and if I can boost its output by adding a relay and beefier wiring then happy days. Glad your foots getting better, my boss has had a cold and was having trouble shaking it off, he was having trouble breathing on Sunday night and called 111 (or whatever the number is) and was told to go to A&E, so his wife took him early Monday morning and he got admitted and found out today that he has a leaking heart valve after having a camera shoved down his throat affraid, life's full of surprises!!
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simbo
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PostSubject: Re: HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade    HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  Icon_minitimeTue Mar 24, 2015 11:01 pm

v-twin wrote:
 my boss has had a cold and was having trouble shaking it off, he was having trouble breathing on Sunday night and called 111 (or whatever the number is) and was told to go to A&E, so his wife took him early Monday morning and he got admitted and found out today that he has a leaking heart valve after having a camera shoved down his throat affraid, life's full of surprises!!

Well That's brightened the mood!  Laughing
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v-twin
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v-twin



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PostSubject: Re: HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade    HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  Icon_minitimeTue Mar 24, 2015 11:08 pm

Yep, guess who's doing his daily job at the moment as well as his own, oh and is also filling in for one of the engineers that has left? HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  18617

Back on topic, have you got a lux meter Dave, that way you could measure the output at 1m before and after, or take some photos and compare them.


Last edited by v-twin on Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:13 pm; edited 2 times in total
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katsd
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PostSubject: Re: HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade    HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  Icon_minitimeTue Mar 24, 2015 11:12 pm

Take the week off mate !!
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katsd
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PostSubject: Re: HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade    HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  Icon_minitimeWed Mar 25, 2015 8:08 am

No lux meter mate.  I was going to take some photos against the inside of the garage door before & after, but as the bike is on the lift with no sidestand, it would have been a balls ache to drop it off the stand, then push it to the back of the garage, then prop something underneath it, then move it back.  When I have it back together, I'll try & do some comparison shots.
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peardrop3
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PostSubject: Re: HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade    HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  Icon_minitimeWed Mar 25, 2015 12:32 pm

The HID I will be fitting won't be on my cruiser but on my Velocette as it has 12v lighting so should be ok & a bit more of a target at night for myopic cage drivers to see coming from a distance & as it's a simple plug n play kit I can remove it if I don't like it & sell it on.
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katsd
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PostSubject: Re: HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade    HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  Icon_minitimeWed Mar 25, 2015 12:41 pm

It's horses for courses Pete - I just wanted an alternative way of boosting output on this bike as I didn't fancy HID.  It maybe that I've got it wrong, when i can actually ride again, I''ll let you know how well it works.

How's the XBR coming on ?
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peardrop3
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PostSubject: Re: HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade    HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  Icon_minitimeWed Mar 25, 2015 12:59 pm

The XBR is hidden away Dave as I need to get my Velo finished before I tear down my shed & build another bigger one this summer.
The HID as I said was for my Velo but I use a proprietary high power bulb in the cruiser as the HID would take up too much space in an already crowded to excess headlight bowl! I think it's a Phillip's Extreme bulb which gives me all the power I need at night as I have 2 spotlights as well with LED's in helping the headlight.
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katsd
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PostSubject: Re: HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade    HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  Icon_minitimeWed Mar 25, 2015 1:06 pm

Understandable - looking forward to seeing it "cafed up"
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hawktheslayer
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PostSubject: Re: HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade    HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  Icon_minitimeWed Mar 25, 2015 1:31 pm

Nice right up, just wanted to add the new slim ballasts will easily fit in your bucket mine did and the wiring is not as tidy as yours! As to the blinding glare the company I used put a metal shroud/reflector around the actual bulb if they are not being installed behind lenses, not sure the actual name of them I mean the lights you see on bmw that look like the bottom of beer glass! That way there is no direct like to blind oncoming traffic and as to the slow firing/needing to turn lights on after the bike has started I have not had that problem so far, you cant turn the lights of on the c800 so they start as soon as you turn the engine over the only time you would have a problem is if your battery is on the way out as the ballast uses a lot of juice to fire. Been on night the past 2 weeks riding 40 miles a night and have never felt safer! Plus because they are plug ad play it literally takes 2 minutes to put the old bulb back in place if the mot station gets arsy about it.
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katsd
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PostSubject: Re: HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade    HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  Icon_minitimeWed Mar 25, 2015 1:47 pm

You have a much newer Vl - mine's 14 years old when they still gave the option of switching them off !!  Done it loads of times - come home, put the bike away & just switched off the ignition.  Like I said, I just fancied an alternative this time.
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peardrop3
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PostSubject: Re: HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade    HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  Icon_minitimeWed Mar 25, 2015 5:25 pm

I put a switch in to be able to switch the lights off as I need.
Dead simple to do, just needs some wire, connectors & a switch putting somewhere where you can get at it like on the right side panel & cut the earth wire at the light & reconnect to the 2 wires from the switch & hey presto you have the ability to switch the lights off as you need. Simples....
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EazyDuz
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PostSubject: Re: HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade    HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  Icon_minitimeWed Mar 25, 2015 11:23 pm

Ive had HIDs in my car for a good 5 years now. When i bought them it was before slim ballasts were cheaply available. I think i paid £40 or so, and i'm still on the original bulbs and ballasts to this day. Cant remember the brand but they had a hawk on the box.

I also had a HID kit for my little VL125, another Ebay job. Worked perfectly and sold the bike with the kit fitted.
I'd buy another one for my C800 but i'm pretty happy with just the standard bulb, maybe one day i will though as they're less taxing on the electrical system.
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katsd
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PostSubject: Re: HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade    HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  Icon_minitimeThu Mar 26, 2015 9:49 am

I agree that HIDs are extremely good at throwing out a bright beam of light, it's just that this time I wanted to fit a legal upgrade.  I've done quite a bit of reading & everything is coming back that retro-fit HIDs are illegal in the UK - Moonfruit - Money Saving Expert - are just a couple of articles that I came across - there are plenty more.

My bike already has a few "questionable" items (noisy pipes, 3-line, non-reflective, side-mounted number plate, non-centrally aligned rear red reflector) so I didn't want to add something that is a definite no-no.  IMO, whilst the pipes, number plate & reflector could be MOT failures, they are not a danger to other road users - a badly aimed HID could be.  It's not the MOT I'm concerned about - I know my bike will pass the MOT this year - it's the police unit driving towards me who've taken a dim (no pun intended) view of my incredibly bright headlights.  I know that you can swap your unit back to the original light for the MOT, but you're not likely to be carrying it with you to swap over at the side of the road. 

A lot of people are not even aware that retro-fit HIDs are not legal for use on UK roads - the guy who's selling you the kit is not likely to say "oh, by the way if you fit these, you're leaving yourself open to prosecution & a possible £2500 fine.  And if you're involved in a bump, your insurance company may refuse to pay out as you've modified your bike with non-approved parts".  But he's not likely to tell you that as he's technically breaking the law by selling them to you, unless you're using them for off-road use only.  You can buy a Leatherman multi-tool from a myriad of places, but carry it down the street in your pocket & you could be arrested.

I've done this write-up so that people who think that HIDs are the only way of improving their headlights know that there are (legal) alternatives.
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EazyDuz
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PostSubject: Re: HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade    HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  Icon_minitimeThu Mar 26, 2015 10:20 am

Yea i've always known for cars they aren't legal unless they have auto levellers and headlight washers, i think thats still the rule. And not legal at all for motorbikes.
That said, i've never been pulled over in car or on bike. 
I guess a lot depends on your local police force too
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katsd
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PostSubject: Re: HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade    HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  Icon_minitimeThu Mar 26, 2015 10:51 am

I'll be honest, I'd not realised that until i started looking around last year.  My understanding is that you have replace the actual headlight with a HID specific headlight shell as well.

You're spot-on that's it's down to the local force - I'd even say, it's down to the officer in the car approaching you & how he's feeling at the time - or whether it's close to the end of his shift.  I've been with police when they've done nothing with a guy with two bald tyres that had ploughed into the central reservation on the M1 in the rain, on the basis that he was not going to get paid out by his insurance company & had suffered enough, but on another occasion, nicked a driver that had run out fuel on the motorway (mind you, she was being lippy & expected to be towed to a petrol station, free of charge)

I do a lot of my riding around Nottingham, Derby & Leicester & have had no problems so far - in fact, the last time I was pulled was in Skegness about 15 years ago.
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DaveK
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PostSubject: Re: HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade    HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  Icon_minitimeTue Oct 13, 2015 9:22 pm

Dave did the relay thing years ago on a Mk2 golf a top upgrade HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  3498837457  looking into your link to eastern beaver now HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  433968
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katsd
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PostSubject: Re: HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade    HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  Icon_minitimeWed Oct 14, 2015 8:53 am

I fitted a Philips "X-treme Vision Plus" bulb in conjunction.  Came home from work on Saturday about half eleven at night - first time I've used it at night - the difference from the original lighting is very noticeable,  much brighter.  Well worth doing.  It's a very well put together kit, I'd recommend it
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DaveK
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PostSubject: Re: HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade    HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  Icon_minitimeMon Dec 07, 2015 9:21 pm

done the upgrade today with the eastern beaver loom (thx   Dave HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  3498837457 ). i use osram night breakers but still found dip beam to be shit & main just ok.
but after the upgrade dip & main are more like it the shock come in the volts jump. with out the upgrade/with upgrade 13.55v/13.89v.
next test is with a H4 led buld will update the outcome some time this week
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katsd
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PostSubject: Re: HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade    HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  Icon_minitimeMon Dec 07, 2015 9:23 pm

That thicker wire sure makes a difference eh !!!  Glad you're happy with it
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simbo
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PostSubject: Re: HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade    HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  Icon_minitimeMon Dec 07, 2015 9:54 pm

Eastern Beaver! Thicker wire! I nearly started checking the links again then   Laughing  .. 
HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  804997 Carry on
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katsd
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PostSubject: Re: HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade    HID vs Relay Wiring Upgrade  Icon_minitimeTue Dec 08, 2015 11:30 am

Sim - that's just the way your mind works !!!!
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